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Thursday, May 07, 2009

Indian Muslims and Patriotism: Cheering for Cricket teams

Just a few days back the Indian Army convoy was attacked in Tamil Nadu by a group of Indian Tamil activists who had felt that the army trucks were on way to Sri Lanka to hand over arms and ammunition to help Sri Lankan army.

It was unprecedented, as it happened on Indian soil. And despite the fact that LTTE is responsible for the assassination of our Prime Minister [Rajiv Gandhi] in the past.

However, did we see any report or any editorial on this issue. Or anybody raising the issue of patriotism or extra-territorial loyalty even in blogosphere? Did anybody question it?

Nobody denies the scale of human suffering in Sri Lanka where thousands are Tamils are caught in the Army's offensive against LTTE. Our heart goes out to them. But there were voices in support of LTTE and even Prabhakaran from our country and even protest against our military.

I have mentioned it in context of an anonymous person's comment on this blog recently:

Babri Masjid was destroyed in 1992. Javed Miandad hit Chetan Sharma for a
last ball six and won a match for Pakistan in 1987. I remember muslims in Bombay
eurpting in wild cheer, celebrating like crazy as if they just won a war.So my
belief in secularism was shaken in 1987. Not in 1992. What is the use of
secularism if that means living together with people who support the enemy who
is killing our soldiers ?

Now see what was my reply was: indscribe said...
I was a kid then and when Javed Miandad hit
the six, I cried so much that my father had to take me out to console me. I was
10 then. However, the next day, when I went to school, I was told by my
classmates that 'you must be happy' and there were sacrcastic remarks.

I didn't owe explanation to anybody. That was a turning point for me also.
I realised that no matter how true I am and how much I try to convince them, I
would never be considered a real patriot and even my generation would be labelled a
Pakistani.

At that age I didn't know these words, but later I stopped discussing
issues like Indo-Pak cricket though my finest friends remain Hindus. I rarely
mention this incident. However, this is the second time I am writing it, first I
mentioned it at the blog Mohalla. You guys get such weird beliefs either due to hearsay or by watching some stupids.

Yes, I am patriot, may be more patriot than you but I don't want
certificate of patriotism. And if you guys always consider us the 'other', what's
the option for guys like us? Tell me. If ever you were born in a Muslim house,
perhaps you would understand this pain.

Meanwhile, I am shortly going to write a post about this sort of
patriotism-meter which you guys seem to have, to check us.Whatever. I still
don't have hatred, yes some bitterness, but you guys seem to have no intention
to try and understand us. Best of Luck.


As the saying goes, Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. The patriotism test is, of course, meant solely for Indian Muslims, even though countless died in 1857 and later in the freedom struggle.

Ashfaquallah got hanged but when a young BJP leader, Varun Gandhi, had the temerity to say that names like 'Karimullah, Mazharullah...' are scary, nobody asked such ungrateful souls about their patriotism. Isn't this man the traitor for daring to speak such abusive language. Mercifully, he didn't say Ashfaqullah in the same breath in the speech. Only an anti-national would find such a name scary.

Would Ashfaqullah Khan's friends Rajendra Lahiri, Ram Prasad Bismil and Thakur Roshan Singh who also died with him, yearning for a free India, ever have dreamt that in independent India, leaders of a mainstream political party will shamelessly support and issue statements in favour of Varun Gandhi who finds names with 'Ullah' surname, 'scary'.

However, no matter what qurbani [sacrifice] one gives for his nation, either it is Captain Hanifuddin or Havildar Abdul Hamid or Brigadier Usman, even their sons and family members would be suspect in the eyes of those who feel that they have the right to judge the patriotism of others just because they were not born in a family that follows their religion.

So much propaganda has been made and falsehoods spread that many believe the lies like Muslims cheering for Pakistani cricket team. In England there was a similar 'Tebbit test' when first-generation Indians and Pakistanis were cheering for their teams against the English team, but tabloids that stirred up a debate and in a few months, it was forgotten.

Why should we proclaim to be patriots?


I am not going to proclaim that I am a patriot. Why should I? All the time Indian Muslims keep doing it, even going against Islamic teachings. Muslim cemeteries refuse to bury terrorists. The lawyer who fights the case is facing boycott from Shia community.

But why?

The truth is that one has to live with this tragedy of deep hatred, mistrust and lies. I get so many hate mails and though I earlier got unsettled and it affected my personal life, I later got immune to them.

I started moderating comments and reject extremist comments, both anti-Muslim as well as anti-Hindu, or such comments that have abuses and obscenities.

But sometimes there are comments that don't have any abusive language but are plane accusations. One feels that they deserve a reply. May be they were never told the truth.


Anonymous hate-comments are like Toilet graffiti


But the next day a new person will come to the blog and make another charge, without bothering to read the earlier post. That's why often I have contemplated that I should quit blogging and stay away from it.

Anonymous persons are those who leave graffiti in train toilets. In real life they will be cool persons and often extremely civil, but will write worst things about women and girls, and derive some sort of pleasure from it.

Similarly, blogosphere is a place where anyone can create an identity, and say things which he can't dare to ask me in real life. He doesn't need to put his photo with his comment.

It is this plain hate that has brainwashed many youths. The recent bomb blast in a mosque in Beed in Maharashtra, that again didn't get reported adequately, is a signal.
The three youths who were caught came from poor Marathi families. They told police that they couldn't bear the sight of a mosque in their town! That's why they planned to blew it up with a bomb.

Read the story in Times of India. Whatever, for Indian Muslims, three generations after partition, the ordeal remains. [Girl's photo courtesy, Adil Najam's website Pakistaniat]

49 comments:

Bit Hawk said...

I do follow your blog regularly. Your articles are interesting, balanced and insightful. Please dont stop blogging just because some jerks write crap comments.

Randeep said...

I am a Sikh married to an Indian muslim lady whose family is from Lucknow and Hyderabad. We were both born in East
Africa and live in London.
India and Pakistan are a cultural synthesis of many traditions - and all of us Sikh, Hindu and Muslim, should abandon our ignorant predjudices, and celebrate this cultural greatness. Take Indian music - a muslim maestro is refered to as an Ustaad (e.g Zakir Hussein on the tabla), a Hindu is refered to as a Pandit (Shiv Kumar Sharma on the santur e.g). They often play together and what joy and liberation they bring to troubled minds. Consider the Urdu language, created in the later part of the Mogul period, around Delhi. It is a magnificient creation. Khushwant Singh described it as " ...more beutiful than the Taj Mahal ". It is not a 'Pakistani' language or just the language of the Indian Muslims. It is a synthesis of Hindi, Persian and Arabic. It is one of the great Indian Languages.
I am Panjabi, and many of the great works of Panjabi literature are written by Muslims. Even the Sikh scriptures (The Guru Granth Sahib) contains works by Muslim sufi saint such as Sheikh Farid who says "Farida jey tuN akal latif, kaley likh na laykh - Apnrde girwan maiN sir niwa kar dekh". - In English, "Oh Farid, if you are a sensible person, then don't abuse people - with black word -, instead be humble, bow your head and look in to yourself"


Then take something as humble as a paratha - it is a synthesis created for Muslim rulers out of the roti and Puri (Hindu). The original form of the Naan comes from Iran is (in my opinion) an inferere to the tandoori Naan which has been synthesised in India. In allmost all aspects of Indian life, we will find this synthesis.

When Indian muslims are made to feel unwelcome, perhaps they should point out the muslim contribution to Indian culture. Music and art, tradiotoin and customs (Mehndi - specifically mehndi ceremonies at Sikh, Hindu and Muslim weddings) for example

mummyjaan said...

You have a fabulous blog. It is unique and has an interesting mix of politics, poetry, current events and Indian society.

Trollish comments shouldn't drive you away from the blogosphere.

I, for one, would be very sorry if there were no indscribe around.

I agree that it can get more than irritating when you have your patriotism questioned (duh! as if anyone has the right) but don't let it dishearten you. When somebody has the rudeness to question your patriotism, it doesn't reflect on you one bit, it reflects on their own petty thinking.

JaLpArI - tHe MeRmAiD said...

Assalam sir
i wud be very grateful if u plz publish this comment.. it may go off trak but stil, plz .
the first thing i'd like to tel is bout being called a 'Pakistani'
i had written a post on this earlier, and you had read it too.
http://almasshamim.blogspot.com/2008/10/so-whoz-crowned-pakistani-part-1.html
it's really really sad how Muslims in India are abused this way... coz i , personally, take it as nothing less than a slander to be called a Paki.
wat u told bout cricket is so true. we cud be crying our heart out for India but we'd hear things like,'tumhara team to jeet gaya, tum to khush hogi'
it hurts, and it hurts bad.
and yet, i wudn deny that the kind of Muslims that anon mentioned dont exist.
they sure do. i know 3 Muslims who used to support Pakistan in cricket matches (wen i was 10-12 maybe, dont know if they still do)....but, just the fact that i am mentioning "3" and even anon mentions "an incident" is enuf to show HOW MANY peole of that kind exist in india.
to generalise every indian muslim coz of this is not an intelligent thing to do, newaz...

like you said sir, such comments are made. and that is precisely wat i meant in one of my previous comments that i doubt if we will be heard.
i hadn agreed bout delegations being useful coz i feel they are total crap, it's just free food and free travel expenses and 5 star accommodation to the memebers and lots of empty talk... bout Islam being the solution to everything...
i seriously believe sir, that Islam IS the solution to everything...a nd so we need to act AS momeens and momeenas and not just like people with Muslim names.
somehow, the idea exists in the world that an Indian cannot be a good, practising Muslim... and any Muslim who is 'practising' cannot be a good Indian.
i will never blame it on the media.
i believe the solution is always within us, if only we care to look...
ab dekhiye.. indian muslims have divided themselves into twoparts.. one very very small IS involved in terrorism, the Pak supportism that anon mentioned and such things that wud hurt any indian's sentiments irrespectiv of his religion... the other part are the India above Islam people... like the actors who worship statues... the politicians (u wrote bout it), the people who cahnge their religion for marriage (from ur blog), who dont allow a Muslim (even if a terrorist) to be buried in a grave ... etc...
i think these are all very cheap things and means for Hindu appeasement by the Indian Muslims....
i will die a million deaths and more before i ever go back in my religion, inshaAllah...
i wud never behave in that way. never do something to prove myself to be an indian.. but i wont even talk bad bout india... bout how india discriminates against me... just the fact that people have to becum anons to abuse you is a proof that abusing a muslim isnt anything 'indian'. the media is biased . yes, but not enuf for us to lose hope.

Muslims need to act rather than form delegations... it is that third part of indian muslims... the part that wont compromise on religion... and yet remain faithful to India (coz islam dsnt tel u to hate ur country, nor does india tel u to hate islam) which needs to break it's silence.... and im sure... well, at least i hope that this part of the indian muslim community is the largest.... the part that prays 5 times a day, gives zakaat, and yes.... loves India.

there is no point in TELLING people that we r indians, we luv india... blah blah... those who believe us will never need to be told this, and those who dont.. will never believe us..
so let them just be...
rather work in the community to raise the standards of the community...

thank you so much for the post sir
jazakAllah khair.

Anonymous said...

I think I just fail to understand why some muslims support Pak.What do you think?If dialog and discussion on this topic is a bit open,perhaps we can understand and respect their choices.Its only the failure of understanding that makes us generalize about and distrust the whole community.

Anser Azim said...

Randeep's interesting post is not complete. Did you miss it or it was incomplete.
best
anser azim chicago

Ye manzilen !! said...

A
Why do we have to indulge in majority/ minority complex? The majority of any country views minority with suspicion and prejudice. The minority responds in kindness and does what last three generation of Muslims did ie become what they were accused of..

Let us turn the page on this issue...

There is nothing called Indians, Pakis and Americans no more. We have a global citizen in the White House let us be global....

BTW I went thru almost the same experience as you did growing up...LOL

Randeep said...

Anser said Randeep's interesting post is not complete

Anser
I did not want my comments to turn into an essay. It just seems to me absurd that so many Hindu's and Muslims, can ignore the obvious evidence of the contribution of each community to India's rich culture.

This evidence is around them, in fact it is hitting them on the head, yet they ignore it.

For example today I feel like eating some sweets. How about Jalebi - which actually originates somewhere in the Arab world. Yet again the Arabic Jalebi is a pale shadow of the Indian version. As for eating Jalebi with Hot milk at breakfast time - what an idea, the Arabs have still not figured that one out.
-- And Halwa/Halawai, Arabic words indicating the origins of much of our sweet cusiine. Of course Rasgola, Cham cham, type sweets are of Bengali Hindu origin. So yet again a great synthesis. Does anyone else in the world make sweets like the Indians NO NO NO.

Joshua said...

Well Indian Muslim, first of all you have the right to feel sad. But remember there will always be a few people who in either community will have hatred for anyone else. Remember MIM chief owaisi using kafreen for Hindus. Or the Indian Mujahidin manifesto abusing hindus in various forms.
In india we have many fundamental sects of Islam . The deobandi clerics do not criticise Taliban. They condemn terrorism but in hidden breadth speak about what terrorism they condemn.

I guess you will talk more about the aesthetic and goody side of muslims and compare it with the few baddy side of fundamentalist hindus. But then there is a larger hindu goody side as well.

Probably its becoming hard to ignore the baddy side of Islamic fundamentalism the world over and that is causing more concern in india.

Yuyutsu said...

Adnan, I am a regular reader of your blog and have also commented occasionally. It'll be really sad if you stop blogging because of some internet trolls.

You need to understand that there will always be some jerks who think they have a right to question someone's patriotism based on religion - we just need to ignore them.

Carry on the good work.
Cheers!

Anonymous said...

It hurts when any community is asked to display its patriotism. Why should anyone be singled out ? That's unfair. I am sure you agree with me. Now comes the difficult part. Most Hindus understand this. Just as there are black sheep among the Hindus, there will be black sheep in all communities. The problem are examples like this: the PM says that muslims should be given preference in povery alleviation schemes. Dees this mean that Nirmala Devi feels less hungry than Rukhsana Begum although both are equally poor ? Why not say that all poor deserve priority over national resources ? Why not say that infilteration in Assam is bad for the country ? How does religion come into it ? Believe me, Hindus (specially those with the BJP) will never demand certificates of patriotism from any Indian. All Indians are born equal.

Anonymous said...

I agree that the current situation is unfair.

However, it will likely persist for as long as (1) violent enmity between India and Pakistan persists, coupled with the point (2) that Pakistan self-consciously was created and asserts itself to be an Islamic nation which claims a right to the allegiance of residents of India (including but not limited to J & K).

So long as that situation persists, there will remain a concern among the Indian majority that a 5th column of hidden enemies may exist within India.

This is unfair and deplorable, but remains inescapable.

Fly, You Fools Comics said...

"Anonymous persons are those who leave graffiti in train toilets. "

Anonymous comments are like the brown skidmarks left in train toilet walls. THE WALLS!!

You dont want to look, but your eyes keep wandering to the spot. And you wonder.. You wonder..

You wonder, "What the HELL was he thinking?".

- Saad

Twisted Elegance.... said...

Everyone in TN opposed the act of such idiots who took on the truck of the Indian army. They have been arrested and people of TN are not with such anti-nationals.

I have nothing to say about the other things you have written because every person in this country knows the real truth about Indian Muslims.

IM said...

@ Jal pari

You find being called a 'Pakistani' slander because you think they are somehow lower than you or you think they are somehow doubting your patriotism?

Faroha said...

It is wrong to doubt anyone's intentions and allegiances...It is only God who knows the truth...but sadly people do like to think they know other people better than others. I think it is unfair to doubt the patriotism of Indian Muslims and I am saying this as a Pakistani. I do not agree with some people saying here that this problem will continue unless Pakistan keeps wanting to excercise its influence and claim these Indian Muslims. Pakistan has not claimed these Indian Muslims. They are Indians now. If something bad happens to them, for instance Gujrat, we do feel their pain and are outraged, but we feel the same for the Muslims in Gaza, Iraq and Afghanistan as well....so why always this Pakistan-India competition in claiming even loyalties of its minority communities? I fail to understand it

JaLpArI - tHe MeRmAiD said...

@IM
calling me a pakistani is calling me 'not Indian'
tellin me to have any nationality other than the one i have (and which you KNOW that i have) is like telling me to be a part of that group of people, in this case, pakistani. . The group of people who belong to that part of the world which broke my country. In other words, callin me a paki is callin me a traitor.
plus, not ignoring the fact that i AM a Muslim, so, its somehow generalizing Muslims in India to be Pakis. It is questioning a whole religious community in india. . . Which i believe is anti-constitution. . And so is a slander.

and bout feeling if pakistanis or anyone for that matter , is lower or not. . . Well, i strongly believe in self-glory of my country. . . I believe my country is the best. And so, again, tellin me to belong to anything but the best is not something i would accept. Others may not believe india to be the best. They are free not to. 'I' am not 'They'.

Anonymous said...

If ever you were born in a hindu household, you would know why we hate muslims. There are a million reasons why hindus dont like muslims, as to why i dislike them is because of Pakistan. It was a state created by muslims because they felt insecure living amoung hindus . But the question that I dont get an answer for is, what the hell are you people still doing in India, what more you want to steal from us??.

I speak from my heart, hence want to remain anonymous.

Mimi said...

@ Anonymous (14 May, 2009 03:30)

Wow that's a lot of hatred. The main reason why Pakistan came into being was because the person who gave this idea Sir Allama Iqbal (The poet who wrote Saare jahan se acha hindustan humara) thought that living with hindus, muslims might start adapting or mixing there religion into Islam, that doesn't mean he hated or despised hindus/Christians but simply believed in the preservation of Islam. This was his way of thinking hence Pakistan was formed.

As for why a lot of Muslims are still living in India, than you need to be reminded there are a LOT of hindus still residing in Pakistan as well. You want Pakistanis to kick them out? I'm sure you wouldn't want that. You can't kick out Indian muslims as well, so instead of wasting your life hating them and cursing them, get to know them you never know you might become the best of friends and for this to happen you have to get rid of all the preconceived notions about them. It's not easy but think of it with an open mind, do you have any other option? How long will you keep hating 150 million of your own people?

Randeep said...

Hi Anonymous,
My wife's family Shia Muslims from Lucknow and Hydrabad, were devasted by the partition of their country. Despite much pressure they chose to remain Indian.

Will you not acknowledge and applaud their courage and devotion to India.

My family on the other hand was from Gujranwalla and Rawalpindi and lost everything in the partition.

Shiraz said...

hmm.. nice article ...and dont know why people failed to notice the beautiful girl cheering up for her team :( .... look duniya kitnee haseen hai .. aur log khwamkhwah me lad rahe hain .. LOL ... btw, I also grown up listening similar remarks from my classmates in my RSS run school... I can never forget an instance where one of my bully classmate put is shoes over my shoes and said, "bahut mara hai na tum logon ne hamari jaan ko" in context of 1992 Kanpur rights... I was bit scared at that time, but now when I look back I feel those people were of narrow mentality and they exist in lots in every corner of society and who cant do a single thing to improve the condition than loud-mouthnig and speaking hatred... we people dont even need to think about these insects... also, I will like to mention that my teachers were very supportive and I never felt any bias from their side ... sometimes RSS people come to school and they used to speak hatred but my teachers also taught me how to ingnore idiots ... once again .. the girl is very beautiful.. kahan se mili ;) ... LOL!!

Randeep said...

Hi Mimi,

Don't fall into the trap set by some intolerant and ignorant Indians into defending Pakistan.
If you are an Indian citizen Muslim or non Muslim no one has the right to tell you to leave India for another country. The fact that Pakistan was created as a homeland for Muslims is of no relevence to the Muslims who chose to remain in India. The Indian republic was not constituted as a homeland for the Hindus of the subcontient and is inclusive of Indians of all religions.

As for Pakistan, Iqbal introduced the somewhat romantic notion of a place where Muslim culture may be preserved. Iqbal died in 1936. The main architect of Pakistan was actually Mohammed Ali Jinnah, who drank alchohol, ate Pork and spoke no Urdu. He can hardly be desribed as the great defender of Muslim identity.

In my opinion the most sincere defender of the Indian Muslim identity was Maulana Abdul Kalam Azaad. He was Mahatama Ghandi's right hand man through the Independence struggle and served as India's Education Minister for many years after 1947. Maluana Azaad was a devout, Indian Muslim who was born in the holy city of Mecca.

Islam has been practised by people in India for more than 1000 of its 1400 year history. The idea that there is a completely distinct Muslim or Hindu or Sikh culture is actually false. We all share a common culture with some differences. In the long run these differences can and have had a very positive effect in synthesising a stronger more vibrant culture.

As for Pakistan's population profile, contary to what you suggest Mimi, there are NOT A LOT of Hindus in Pakistan. Only 4% of the poulation are non Muslim. Out of 167 million, about 3 million (2%) are Hindu, just under 3 million are Christian. The Sikh population is only 20,000.

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. It is not secular like India. In pakistan one religion has pre-eminence in its constitution over others. Within that religion there are some sects that have precedance over others.

As for participation in Pakistani life, there has never been a non Muslim in government and few Muslims participate in politics(that is when the army allows any politics to be practised). Two Hindu's (Uncle and nephew) have played Cricket for the national team.

There is ONE Sikh officer serving in the Pakistani army and TWO Hindu's who are Doctors in the medical core.

I read Pakistani Newspapers on the internet and have never come across a collumn, or blog written by a Pakistani Hindu. This is so very very different from Indian newspapers where I see collumns and correspondence from Indian Muslims all the time.

Randeep

Mimi said...

@ Randeep

I am a muslim Pakistani.

Yes Sir Allama Iqbal passed away in 1936 but he was the one who forced Quaid-e-Azam to do so. Quaid -e-Azam was disappointed with peace not occurring between Hindus and Muslims and so had left India but Sir Allama Iqbal had several meetings with him and forced him to carry out his plan.

As for Quaid-e-Azam eating pork and drinking alcohol I don't know where did you hear these stuff from but I can assure you these are not true. If these were true than the first Chief Justice of Pakistan a Jew wouldn't have converted to Islam after getting influenced by Quaid-e-Azam. Besides there are a lot of degrading stuff said regarding Gandhi some have even made sites against him but I don't believe it because there is no proof for a lot of stuff.

You saying Non muslims are not many in Pakistan, Is 3 million less?? (FYI Pakistani politician Kishinchand Parwani has said there are 5 million Pakistani Hindus) You shouldn't compare it with the number of Indian minorities because India is 7 times larger than Pakistan.

Many Indians say how they have the Khans who are Muslims and what about Non-Muslims what do they do in Pakistan.

Pakistan doesn’t have entertainment or shall I say Film industry (When Pakistan Film industry was alive and running Satish Anand was a noted Filmmaker and Film distributor of over 450 films including two Indian film) If you look at fashion industry we have non-Muslims like designer Deepak Perwani, model/TV actress Sunita Marshall, model Cybil and Racheal. We have a band Fuzon whose guitarist is Shalum and band GT who’s lead singer is Glenn Silverious John his father was a famous ghazal singer S.B. John, than there is singer A.Nayar and the famous old girl band Benjamin sisters. And a lot of Hindus/Christians even work at various channels behind the camera like producer, control room operator etc.

Chief Justice the third highest position in Pakistan after the president and Prime Minister have been held by non-muslims. Justice Bhagwan Das was Acting Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan, if not enough, Justice Alvin Robert (A.R.) Cornelius served on the Supreme Court of Pakistan for 17 years, nearly 8 years of those as Chief Justice. Not bad for an Islamic republic I guess.

I don't know the exact number of Non-muslims in the Pakistan army but it is definitely NOT 3. This is a line I read from Global security about Pakistan army "The army sees itself as a national institution and thus many non-Muslim officers (including Qadiyanis) have achieved high ranks within the army."

Randeep said...

Hi Mimi,
I did not realize you were a Pakistani. I think one should state one's affliations at the outset (as I did) before writing to these blogs.

1. My points are that (a) the Muslims of India (collectively) have nothing to apologise for. (b) The non Muslims should applaud the Muslims of India for their committment to India, for not having opted for the "Muslim homeland" of Pakistan. (c) The Muslims of India should point out with pride their achievements and contribution to Indian society.

2. Mimi - I will invite you and especially the Muslim hating Hindus of India to visit the following site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_Kalam_Azad

3. More from Maulana Iqbal's wonderful poem - Hindustan hamara :

Mazhab nahin sikhaata, Aapas main bair rakhna

Hindi hain hum watan hain, Hindustan hamara

And he used the term Hindi to mean all the people of the Indian subcontinent.

So you are right Iqbal did not hate the Hindus.

4. And NO I do not visit the hate sites which are always denigrating Ghandi,Jinah and any one else you care to name. It is accepted by serious historians that Mohamed Ali Jinah was not a strict Muslim in the sense of reading the Namaz and Islam's prescribed dietary habits. Many prominent figures who knew him have attested to the fact that he liked a drink or two in the evenings. If you ever see newsreel pictures of him speaking to 'the masses' at rallies and large gatherings, he speaks in English in which he was most fluent. His mother tongue was Gujerati and he did not speak Urdu. Ghandi learn't to speak Urdu when he was in South Africa, as he wanted to be close to the Muslims who shared his struggles for justice. He learnt to read Urdu from one of his Muslim friends (a munshi) who shared his South African struggles, when they sailed to India, although he never became fully proficient in it.

5. This month Mohammed Amin Naik achieved the rank of Major general in the Indian army.

The first and so far only Sikh to serve in the Pakistani army. Leutenant Harcharan Singh was commisioned on the 8th. of June 2008. He vowed to show as great if not a greater committment to Pakistan than his Muslim brother officers. The two Hindu officers are (Doctors) Capt. Danish and Capt. Anil Kumar.

5. As for the demographic make up of Pakistan - I may have overestimated, the proportion of Hindus. Apparently only 3% of the population is non Muslim. (Janes defence analysis 2009) This 3% does not include the (6 million) Ahmedis/Quadiyani/Mirzai who are constitutionally defined as NON Muslim Qafirs in Pakistan. So the Hindu population would be about 1.5%. The proportion of Muslims in India is estimated at 17%.

So IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. As a proportion the Muslims of India are ten times (17% against 1.5%) the Hindus of Pakistan.

In fact the Muslim population of India exceeds the entire population of Pakistan.

6. I see you take pride in the non Muslims who have achieved prominence in Pakistan as I take great pride in the Muslims who (despite descrimination) have achieved prominence in India. So I stand corrected in some of my earlier assertions.

Yet it is not the same thing. Yes in the film and entertainment Industry the Muslims of India have achieved far more than their proportion would suggest. However Muslims have achieved in many more areas. For example A.P.K Abdul Kalam was the third Muslim to become President of India after a glitering career as a scientist, or the Indian industrialist Azim Premji (same Shia/Ismaili community as Mohamed Ali Jinah) - the second richest man in India.... many many more.

7. Finaly let me remind you that Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. So how can the non Muslims be 'exactly' equal to the Muslims in such a state.

Randeep

Mimi said...

@Randeep

Thank you for a your reply. I didn't think it was necessary to state my nationality, everyone has the right to give there point of view regardless of there faith and nationality.

I don't hate Hindus or common Indians, I live in middle east and one of my best friend is an Indian.

If Quaid-e-azam drank or ate pork, Sir Allama Iqbal who was a strict Muslim in the first place would not have chosen Quaid-e-Azam for this task and probably the people who were against the formation of Pakistan would have used this against him. Quaid-e-Azam infact during the opening of the Pakistan state bank advised to follow the Islamic economic system rather than the western stating we will be doomed if we don't (that did not sadly happen but that's another story). Secondly I don't know what is the 'big' deal if Quaid-e-azam did not speak Urdu, there are a lot of people residing in Pakistan (Pathans, punjabis, balochis etc) who are fluent in there respective mother tongue but don't know how to speak a single work of Urdu does that make them any less Pakistani than other fluent Urdu speaking Pakistanis? NO Not at all.

India is secular, Pakistan is NOT and cannot even become one. Success is not restricted to secularism, your wife is a Muslim and she must be aware of Islamic laws (Sharia law) in which a Muslim/non-Muslim belonging to the same country should be treated equally. Muslims have to pay 2.5% charity while the non-Muslims pay tax (jiziyah) after which a Muslim should even die in order to protect a non-Muslim. Though in Pakistan both pay taxes and Pakistan does not follow Sharia law.

If you have read my post carefully I didn't even state once that 'It is the same thing' like in India as you have mentioned a lot of times. I have said the way they have progressed in every field be it Chief justice, businessmen, fashion industry etc it's not bad for an Islamic Republic.

Regards!

Mimi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Randeep said...

Mimi,

1. I have had another look at the earlier comments that I posted on this blog. I am afraid some of my comments especially about Mohammed Ali Jinnah may have come across as a little disrespectful. I assure you that was and is NOT my intention. In any case I apologise if I caused any hurt.

2. The reason I responded to your comments in the first place was because you had responded with diginity to some anti Muslim hate comments made by an earlier correspondent.

3. Let us all consider Babba Farid's words (which were included in the Guru Granth Sahib).

"Jo toi maran mukia - tinHaa na maarey ghum
aapnarry ghar jaa-ee-ai pair tinHaa day chumm."

In English :
Farid, do not turn around and strike those who strike you with their fists.
Kiss their feet, and return to your own home.

4. As for Indians having Pakistani friends and vice versa. That is the reality of most people not living in India or Pakistani. That is also the best hope for peace. Contact between the people.
The earliest and best friend I have ever had is Mohammed Javed. As six year old boys we were the only Panjabi's in a class of forty Gujeratis in a small town in Kenya.

Now the irony is that his family is originally from Jalander and mine from Gujeranwalla. So the question was who was the Pakistani and who the Indian. He has been back to his ancestral village near Jallander where he was shown records of his family's lands and homes, preserved - written on cloth, and safely kept in the village Gurudwara. The old Sikhs of the village (friends of his grandfather) said that at partitiion they had hoped that their Muslim friends and neighbours would one day return.

5. As for the beauty and sublimity of Islam. My wife has shown it to me in Sufi grace, ideology, music and poetry. The Sikhs share a lot of this - especially in our devotional music and poetry - Shabad.

Randeep

Faraaz Rahman said...

Sir,
I am a regular visitor of your blog. I might not have commented regularly but I do keep track of your writings.
I find your blog very interesting and of more interest to me is your thoughts regarding this whole Indian Muslim identity issue and the haunting Pakistan factor in their lives. I have a dear friend who happens to be an Indian Muslim as well and it was through her that I began to understand these issues.
I understand how sometimes negative comments and negative attitude in general can get the better of us. I also understand how it might make us feel that our work is pointless, and discourage us, but even if it manages to gladden one heart, we should do it.
Please do not stop blogging. Even if it manages connect with one Hindu who used to hate Muslim, and one Indian Muslim who used to cheer for Pakistan..you have accomplished a lot.
I leave you with these words of the great poet Rabindranath Tagore
"Jodi Tor Daak Shone Keo Naa Ashe, Tobe Ekla Cholo Re"
"If no one responds to your call, you set off on your path by yourself nevertheless"

Mimi said...

@ Randeep

The manner in which you gave your point of view, you definitely have earned my respect.

As long as with keep pointing fingers and disrespecting people of different religions or caste we'll end up nowhere.

Baba Guru Nanak or Prophet Muhammad P.b.u.h are respected by masses mainly because of there message of love and tolerance, if they were preaching hatred they wouldn't be having a single followers.

Healthy discussions/debates are always appreciated.

Regards =)

P.S: I'm a punjabi as well from Sialkot, Gujranwala is near Sialkot!

Anonymous said...

I liked your all posts. Please keep writing. We really need people like you to fill the gap. I feel education is the most important thing for people belonging to all religion. The greatest religion is humanity, all should understand.

Krishna said...

Hello Randeep and MIMI,

First of all let me say that Indian muslims of today are as patriotic as any other community. I wouldn't really waste much time on such silly stuff. Also I am no warmongerer and don't want wastage of resources on wars with pakistan.
Now Just Thinking loudly.
Are Jelabis, Tajmahal(At the expense of people's tax money), Urdu(Which was imposed on telugu and kannada speaking people at the expense of local languages) worth all the fights and resultant deaths(including the million deaths for pakistan, which has failed to justify those deaths todate) imposed by the foreign (Afghan, Iranian)rulers ? NOT FOR ME. I can't really appreciate them as joyfully as Randeep can. Are those southern parts of India that didn't come under muslim rule and so influence of so called syncretic culture any less Indian?

MIMI,

With who was Mr.Iqbal living before he got grand idea of separate muslim land ? wasn't he living with Hindus? What exactly was the problem? No prob living with hindus under muslim rule and under british rule too. By the way I know few Indian and pakistani muslims, I didn't find Pakistani muslims to be any more Islamic (or less corrupted by other religions)than indian ones.
Coming to Hindus in Pakistan, most of my pakistani freinds in USA give a different picture. Please read textbooks(what they say about religions, history) in Pakistan and India, you will know.
Coming to Jiziyah, what % needs to be paid, Is it 2.5? If you read the various namas written by medieval rulers and their men, you will know it was most of the times 2 times more. Don't state exclusion of non-muslims from army jobs due to mistrust as a positive point or some sort of sacrifice .

Anonymous said...

I am writting these few lines to 'indescribe'.I have recently read your article 'Indian Muslims and Patriotism" and I must say that you have developed 'a little' misunderstanding about hindus.You do not need to give a proof to be patriotic towards India.Whether you are a muslim or a tamil or a punjabi,it does not matter as much as the fact that you first are an Indian.Young Indians are not mad enough to discriminate muslims and they never will be questioned or doubted.And of course there will be a few incidents you might come across but they will be by people who are either orthodox else uneducated.Your views about this matter must be because of your surroundings.As for Varun Gandhi's speech,not only muslims but hindus were also hurt and absolutely angry by his remarks.And the whole India knows that he was a fool and an idoit to say so.Please don't think that indians will always be doubting your loyalty towards India.You will agree with me when I say that It really does not matter which religion you are of, as it does not change the fact that a human will always remain human no matter which religion he/she follows.

Mimi said...

@ Krishna
Sir Allama Iqbal was born when the British had taken over India. At that time as well Hindu-Muslim clash took place like a famous incidence when Hindu wanted a hindu temple to be built on a land and Muslims wanted a mosque to be built on the very same land. Like I said earlier Quaid-e-Azam left India and went to UK because there was no peace occurring between Hindus and Muslims.

Regarding Pakistani Muslims being corrupt with other religions that is not Sir Allama Iqbal's fault that they don't follow Islam as it should it be, it is there own fault. Like Gandhi wished for everyone to have a house and be educated in India, if that didn't happen it is not Gandhi's fault. So I don't want to go into a debate as to what Pakistani Muslims or any other Muslims beliefs are.

'No' country in the world follows Sharia law completely. Even the so-called Islamic banks are not Islamic. Coming to Jaziyah according to Islam it is not basically religion based but it was enforced as to have equality among everyone belonging to the same land. Everyone had to put there share in the development of the land. Both non-Muslims and Muslims were required to pay tax in Islamic countries. The Muslim tax was called “Zakat”, which was much more broad. Non-Muslims did NOT have to pay any zakat on any of their property, livestock, produce or crops while Muslims –did-. Zakat also varied depending on the Muslim’s situation, depending on the size of property, number of live stock, amount of savings, on average, the Muslim paid more taxes than the non-Muslim. Besides an average of Muslims paying more taxes, Muslims also had to pay with their lives, they had to join the army and defend the country, whereas non-Muslims in the country were not required to enlist, again displaying the price for the Muslims was higher than for the non-Muslims. In fact if at times non-Muslims took part in battle they were exempt from paying Jaziya but the Muslim still had to pay Zakat (Muslim Tax). Non-Muslims weren't exempt from joining the army because of trust issue but because at times Muslims were fighting people of the same religion as the non-Muslims residing in the land and they might not feel comfortable fighting them, this was a reason as well. Both Muslims and non-Muslims alike faced force if the tax was not paid. I have written this to let you know what Islam has stated about Zakat/Jaziya if some ruler has done injustice, be it with Non-Muslims as well he will have to be answerable to God for his actions.

Lastly, I don't mean to be offensive but why do most people even after 61 years still want to question as to why Pakistan exists. Pakistan is a reality and yes it does have problems but that doesn't give anyone the right to question it's existence. I know Pakistan and India can never be the best of friends, there will be finger pointing at one time or another but at least we can try to be good distant neighbours because no common man in both the countries want war as they are the ones who will die while the war mongers will be sitting safely inside there respective houses.

God bless us all.
Regards.

சிவப்பிரகாசம் ரமாராஜ் said...

I feel really bad our Muslim population is treated as non indians when ever terror strucks some part of country


Indian Muslims are Indians by virtue and by birth

some idiots do all the funky things in all religions they are part and parcel of all religions not just in islam


they day we start believing our neighbors regardless of their religion are indians regardless of the crisis faced by India by any idiot .

my fav bowler 'akram' , my fav batsmen 'sahin' doe it make any less indian. all bull shit.

J P Joshi said...

A very beautiful post. Reading the post and the comments was very educative and I do pray, hope and wish that you never do stop blogging. We need people like you in the blog world....... so don't deny us this, please.

I served in the armed forces and I can say with certainty that religion was never mentioned there.. it was always the calibre and the commitment that was seen. One of our finest chief was Air Chief Marshal Latif and my favourite president, like with so many other Indians, would undoubtedly be President Kalam.

Every citizen of India has equal rights and responsibilities and these are guaranteed by our visionary constitution and are enforced by our courts and no body is above the law of the land. We have a small minority of people, from every religion, who are intolerant but that should not detract us from the larger macro picture of tolerant India and its largely peace loving diversity.

Try imagining this diversity in any other part of the world and you would understand what I mean.

Please keep blogging.

thiripansathish said...

i am a tamilian..i saw in ur blog about the indian army incidence...this what myself and my friends(tamilians) used to talk what ever my country do...i support it....even wrong i dont care ...i will take others life or give my life for the welfare of my country india....wat indian army did in srilanka is their problem....not mine ....i dont care wheather im being selfish here but i support my india...in this....issue..and about indian muslims...i love abdul kalam..i see no religion..for me the only religion in india is indianism...those who belive in it are citizens of republic of india...those who dont belive are terrorist....jai hind....

Anonymous said...

I am a Pakistan-born American who is saddened by the status of Indian Muslims in the Indian Society. My passion and love for the Indian Muslims is due to the fact that both my parents were from Delhi, India ( Delhi is our ancestral home as we are a Mughal Family ). From what I have read, Indian Muslims now are the poorest and least educated segment of Indian Society as they have fallen behind the Dalits ( Source: Rajinder Sachar Commission Report submited to PM Manmohan Singh ).

Officially, Indian Muslims are 13.4% of Indian Muslims. However most experts believe that Indian Muslims are closer to 20% of Indian Population, but the Indian Government misrepresents this fact for political reasons and to marginalize Indian Muslims.

Today 60% of Indian Muslims have fallen below the poverty line. Indian Muslims literacy rate has fallen below 50%. Although 20% of Indian population, yet less than 1.5% of college graduates are Muslims. Muslims have less than 4% of Government jobs. Less than 2% loans are given to Indian Muslims.

I think the myth of Indian Secularism ( which never existed in reality ) is long been dead. Hindu terror organizations like RSS promoting Hidutva philosophy have openly declared war on Muslim and Christian minorities with ultimate goal of converting them to hinduism by force. The Senas of Maharashtra thugs have made life of Muslims unbearable.

Yet, Indians demand loyalty of these poor oppressed minorities at gunpoint. It is unfathomable to read Indian Blogs that attempt to defend Indian Society despite these realities.

Indians claim to be World's largest Democracty, but I believe India is World's largest Hypocrisy.

God Bless us all.

chhaya said...

@ Anonymous
U r positively nuts n proving yourself to be a true representative of paranoidistan. You live in a vibrant democracy lik the US. Do you think in a democracy you can downplay a 20% to be 13%!!!
Please keep your opinions to yourself and urgntly seek help. You are suffering from acute paranoia.

Kiran sai said...

Any one who calls an INDIAN muslim a paki should remember Dr A P J Abdul kalaam(Missile man of INDIA) and his contribution to the defence of this great nation.

கானகம் said...

Very Good that you spit it out.. As a Hindhu I feel ashamed for treating fellow Indian based on religion. No one has either given nor empowered to certify some one as Patriotic or traitor.

We should not lose hope.. Our neighbors (pak and Srilanka) are the classical examples for their bad standard of living due to their internal war. We should not lose our hard earned freedom in the name of Religious differences.

I like your post very much.

Anonymous said...

W When will Indian realized that Pakistan is a reality and we are here to stay. And Pakistan is doing million time better than your media shows you. I remember one of the news in Indian paper in 2001, that said Pakistan will end by 2007. Keep drinking your cool aid.

Following lines were said by one of the Pakistani. I love it.
"
Lastly, I don't mean to be offensive but why do most people even after 61 years still want to question as to why Pakistan exists. Pakistan is a reality and yes it does have problems but that doesn't give anyone the right to question it's existence. "

Anonymous said...

Randeep,
A question for you. Muslim woman is not allowed to merry a non-Muslim man. How did your merry you? I am sure she left her family to merry a Sikh or you converted to Islam. There is no other way. If you did not become Muslim then your wife is committing "Zana" which is greatest sin in Islam. If you really love her then I am sure you will get her out of that painful misery.

Goutham said...

Hello Brother,

Being an Hindu and member of RSS I am sorry for what ever ill treatment you have received. But defiantly RSS never teach us to hate Muslims. Ashfaqulla Khan is hero for all RSS member just like Bhagat Singh and many other freedom fighter. We believe in national unity irrespective of cast and religion.

Good luck .. Vande Mataram

Gouthama

Sarthak Ganguly said...

Well written post. Unfortunately as far as my experience goes you constitute a minority when it comes to Muslims supporting India. Anyway, IMO supporting Pakistan or Australia makes you anti-India -I find this argument silly. As for calling you "Pakistani" - serious mistake, but you can understand when a country is partitioned into a Muslim State and a (predominantly) Hindu State, questions about allegiance will continue to be raised. Just like Hindus in Bangladesh are considered Indian fifth columnists :(

Wisdumb said...

Hi Indian Muslim,

I am an Indian Hindu. I perfectly understand your feelings. There are trolls all over the world, it is ignorance which makes them behave this way. Whether you're a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or any other religion first we are all human beings and as a human being first we must learn to be compassionate and understand the feelings of other human beings and try not to hurt it. If you don't have this attribute in you, you're not qualified to follow any religion. GOD (Allah, Krishna, Father of Jesus or whoever) will not consider you or your prayers.
Keep up your good work and continue to write and do what you've been doing. Follow your heart, which is the path to God.
Your Hindu Friend. Cheers!

Vikram said...

Dont pay attention to the trolls ! Liberty, Equality, Justice and Fraternity are the preamble of our Constitution. And none of us Indians should rest till each one of our countrymen has all four. Ekla Chalo Re !

redrajesh said...

Why do you muslims always point fingers at others rather than looking at yourselves? You may have been a patriotic Indian, but if even 10% of your community is supporting pakistan, it will stick out like a sore thumb and will make anyone view the community with suspicion. And why do you think people associate paki loyalty only with muslims? Does anyone ever suspect any Sikh or Parsi or Jain or Buddhist of thinking on those lines? The right question would be what is the muslim community doing wrong which the other minority communities are doing right. Plus what you say applying to muslims in India probably applies to any non muslim in pakistan or bangladesh or any other muslim country in the world. You think a hindu or a sikh or christian in pakistan or bangladesh is treated any better than the muslims in India? For all you know, the amount of suspicion they have to undergo is a million times more than what you have to undergo. So why don't you show some sympathy for them rather than just whining about what you are facing? Why don't you have the guts to tell pakistan and bangladesh that your suffering is because of the way they are treating the non muslims there?

editor said...

Rajesh ji, I explained my views. Regarding your expectations about what I should do, I not only talk about that [read other posts also], I do a lot in practice a lot.

editor said...

Rajesh ji, I explained my views. Regarding your expectations about what I should do, I not only talk about that [read other posts also], I do a lot in practice a lot.